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| Help with the Treason Damage Rules! |
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| Uccisore |
 Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: Help with the Treason Damage Rules! |
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RED
Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 39
Service Group: PLC
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Running a semi-Straight, semi-Classic campaign, and I'm having a really hard time understanding how to use the alternate rule system that doesn't involve 'treason points', but 'treason damage' instead.
My problem is this: How the heck do you resolve situations where The Computer sees a treasonous act itself? In my games at least half of the character's treason total comes from an action being observed because of the Tension rating, and only a little bit comes from accusations after the fact. This is easy to manage with Treason Points, I just quietly (or loudly) tally them up when treason is noticed, and deliver a punishment at debriefing based on the total. But this 'treason damage' thing is incoherent to me when there's no player leveling an accusation.
It doesn't make any sense for the Computer to make a 'Management' roll to convince itself the player is guilty, and it also doesn't make any sense to automatically apply the highest or lowest possible result by default (many of them are way too high or way too low).
So what am I supposed to do? |
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| Phial |
| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: |
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UV Master Programmer
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 5520
Service Group: PLC
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Making it up has always worked for me.
When forced due to a mechanic to rely on a roll I make the roll and use it to adjust my existing intentions. Low result meaning less favorable than original intention to player, high more favorable.
Of course this is all done based on no reference to the rules what-so-ever. I'm sure a more scholarly reply will be forthcoming soon.
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| Allen Varney |
| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Gamma Very High Programmer
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1083
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The Treason damage system never got any traction in the community, and in the 25th Anniversary editions Gareth Hanrahan ended up reverting to the older treason point system. This example is probably one reason why. As you've discovered, the system doesn't work well with The Computer itself as prosecutor. It's intended to resolve accusations players and NPCs make against one another, with The Computer as arbiter.
It might be possible to rejigger the system so that when The Computer is the accuser, the target character make the Management roll by way of mounting a defense against the accusation. Of course the target would then want to roll low rather than high, which continues the design incoherence you noted. But there are worse fates.
Failing that, I think you're best served by falling back on "the accusation produces exactly the result you want it to produce." If you have a sense that the minimum and maximum results are too low or too high, that implies you know what a good mid-range result should be. Bingo, that becomes the result.
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-- Allen Varney
PARANOIA (2004 edition) principal writer
Official PARANOIA novels: Ultraviolet Books
PARANOIA development blog |
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| Uccisore |
| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 39
Service Group: PLC
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Thanks guys- the idea that the Treason Damage mechanic didn't really take off is helpful. I was convincing myself that there was some very obvious solution (other than GM Fiat, I mean  ) in the book that I wasn't seeing for some reason. I'll just use the Treason Point system going forward.
Was not expecting a reply this quickly, it's good to know there's a Paranoia community out there. |
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| Silent |
| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 2885
Service Group: HPD&MC
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One problem I do have with the 25th Edition Treason Rules that they have only one punishment. Termination. And I don't feel like giving up the other punishments, that'd seem like a regression.
So I converted those other punishments to the Treason Point system, assuming first off that 1 Treason Point=Official Condemnation, so receiving a Treason Point is in fact a "correction" in and of itself. 1 Official Commendation acts as a reverse Treason Point, and could even send your Treason Point totals to the negatives.
3 Points - Probation
5 Points - Censure
10 Points - Medication
15 Points - Brainscrub
20 Points- Termination.
Punishments would be given out at debriefing, and you receive the highest possible Punishment. Getting punished reduce your Treason Point total (EDIT EXAMPLE: so if you had a Brainscrub, your Treason Point total get reduced by 15 points). Otherwise, Treason Points get carried over to the next mission, assuming there is a next mission.
If you get 20 Treason Points in the middle of the mission, you're marked for Termination and your next clone is decanted. Your new clone, of course, starts with 0 Points (though this is justified by the clone template being "repatterned" to stop you from conducting the same treasonous deeds you did to deserve termination).
I have not tested this system out yet, but I plan on doing so as a GM.
EDIT: As for Erasure, I have no formalized rule for determining when to invoke that, but if a player keeps on getting terminated over and over as a blatant traitor, I may be forced to put the clone template out of its misery. Probably shouldn't be a major issue though because either the clone will run out of money to pay for clone backups (if non-UV) or clone degradation would quickly make the clone template useless (if UV).
I'll also keep Erasure as a tool to intimidate players, similar to that of how GMs use The Computer.
EDIT2: Just realized a problem though with saying "highest possible Punishment". If a character gets over 20 Treason Points after treason allegations in debriefing, he would "only" qualify for Termination under those rules, which is not what I want. It'd be easier for the players, but tougher on me.
What I should have said is that the characters would receive enough punishments to reduce his Treason Point total down to a reasonable amount (say, 2 or lower, which can then be wiped away from the official records...because after all, Treason Points is a form of correction), but that when selecting punishments, you should aim to select the most "expensive" Treason Point punishment possible.
Let's give the example of Goner-R-GON-1, who has 35 Treason Points after debriefing allegations. Under my system, it'd mean that Goner-R-GON would get:
1 Termination (15 Treason Points Left)
and 1 Brainscrub (0 Treason Points Left Over)
I know Allen Varney is probably going to ask about why I'm making it difficult on myself by keeping records of Treason Points, but since you're going to need to keep track of Treason Points anyway to know when The Computer will authorize a Termination, you might as well go the full hog. (GM Fiat is preserved by the fact that I determine how many Treason Points to hand out to each player, so if I don't want to deal with probation, I can always hand out Treason Points in multiples of 5.)
EDIT3: Another idea I had would be to keep Treason Point totals and then have FC "purchase" what punishment to give the player, and not limiting to "highest possible Punishment". So instead of Goner-R-GON just getting 1 Termination and 1 Brainscrub, I could have Goner-R-GON instead have:
*1 Termination (15 Treason Points Left)
*1 Censure (10 Treason Points Left)
*1 Medication (0 Treason Points Left)
This gives more control to the GM over what punishments to assign, and may lead to more unique situations for the player to be hosed in.
(Sorry for continually editing this post.)
_________________
| Phial, in ARC wrote: |
| I know I'm a dummy but, I realised as recently as yesterday why the IC game is in PLN sector. |
Silent-B-PLN-6
Chief of Security(pending)
Works in: HPD&MC, Internal Security
Wearing: BLUE Jumpsuit
Silent-V-PLN-10 (deceased) Runs XAI Subsector |
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| Uccisore |
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 39
Service Group: PLC
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| Hey Silent....looking at the 25th edition rules right now, and practically the exact system you describe is in there already on page 168, in the Debriefing section. Different numbers of points meaning different levels of punishments, different punishments taking away some of your treason points, the rest of your treason points carrying on to the next mission...it's all right here. About the only difference is that this adds Erasure at 30 treason points, and in this system, the amount of treason points you lose is lower than the value of the crime (For example, Probation is at 5-8 Treason Points, but you only lose 3 Treason points for being put on Probation). |
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| Silent |
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 2885
Service Group: HPD&MC
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| Uccisore wrote: |
| Hey Silent....looking at the 25th edition rules right now, and practically the exact system you describe is in there already on page 168, in the Debriefing section. Different numbers of points meaning different levels of punishments, different punishments taking away some of your treason points, the rest of your treason points carrying on to the next mission...it's all right here. |
...oh. 
I blame it on me not having Troubleshooters and only having the UV edition, which only has the "20 Treason Points = Termination" rule, so I assumed that the same system existed for all the 25th Ann. PARANOIA rulebooks.
(Staying true to the rulebook without reading it, what a shock for a PARANOIA GM)
_________________
| Phial, in ARC wrote: |
| I know I'm a dummy but, I realised as recently as yesterday why the IC game is in PLN sector. |
Silent-B-PLN-6
Chief of Security(pending)
Works in: HPD&MC, Internal Security
Wearing: BLUE Jumpsuit
Silent-V-PLN-10 (deceased) Runs XAI Subsector |
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| Uccisore |
| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 39
Service Group: PLC
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| Silent wrote: |
| Uccisore wrote: |
| Hey Silent....looking at the 25th edition rules right now, and practically the exact system you describe is in there already on page 168, in the Debriefing section. Different numbers of points meaning different levels of punishments, different punishments taking away some of your treason points, the rest of your treason points carrying on to the next mission...it's all right here. |
...oh.
I blame it on me not having Troubleshooters and only having the UV edition, which only has the "20 Treason Points = Termination" rule, so I assumed that the same system existed for all the 25th Ann. PARANOIA rulebooks.
(Staying true to the rulebook without reading it, what a shock for a PARANOIA GM) |
Hehe, don't worry about it- in general I Have a really hard time finding things in that book. Something about the way the table of contents is laid out feels really counter-intuitive. |
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| No.5127 |
| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:44 am Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 03 Aug 2007
Posts: 1060
Service Group: Technical Services
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Print this to navigate accurately: http://www.paranoia-live.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=138750#138750
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CharName: Gimo-R-ROY
Status: is being suffered of censorship
He tells the phrase 'I also accidentally assaulted an IntSec Agent, but I am trying to be much more Loyal now.'
and Gimo's forehead has attached grey piece of paper, it reads:
SCOLD THIS CLONE
HE LIED TO INTSEC |
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