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| Killing the treasonous clones |
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| JayHawk |
 Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 12:21 pm Post subject: Killing the treasonous clones |
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RED
Joined: 21 May 2011
Posts: 1
Service Group: R&D
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Dear Computer,
I'm a beginning GM and have a question.
Once it is established one of my players is a traitor and/or mutant and/or communist, what is there to stop my other players from killing all new clones of that player. Or does a new clone free of all guilt?
JH |
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| Silent |
| Posted: Sat May 21, 2011 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 2885
Service Group: HPD&MC
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New clones are free of guilt (the rulebook mentions "twiddling" as a plausible excuse for why new clones are free of guilt; if treason was detected, the genetic code behind the clone is modified to remove said treason, with suitably undesirable results for the clone in question).
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| Phial, in ARC wrote: |
| I know I'm a dummy but, I realised as recently as yesterday why the IC game is in PLN sector. |
Silent-B-PLN-6
Chief of Security(pending)
Works in: HPD&MC, Internal Security
Wearing: BLUE Jumpsuit
Silent-V-PLN-10 (deceased) Runs XAI Subsector |
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| Cam-R-ONN-1 |
| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 2:08 am Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 16 May 2011
Posts: 85
Service Group: HPD&MC
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An in-game excuse if you need it. The Computer established a Clone Reprocessing Department that is in charge of filtering out the previous clone's treasonous memories and any DNA factors that lead to treason. The human body and mind being as complicated as they are, no one in this department knows what they're doing. So they just make no modifications and hope no one notices.
My excuse is that there is one part of the computer's personality that has split itself off from the rest. This part is actually competent and it runs the cloning areas. It is trying to slowly, secretly, reform Alpha Complex from the inside. With life expectancies in Alpha Complex measured in weekcycles, anyone who discovers this problem keeps quiet about it. After all, you never know when you'll need a backup clone yourself.
Whatever you decide, the main things with the clone system is it's an extra life. Players might be assigned to go into areas which all corridors that lead to the area are above their clearance, they might get R&D equipment that's essentially a deathtrap, but for some reason their clones always return to the mission area an exact duplicate and within 5 minutes. Well, unless you find it funny for it not to. |
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| Phial |
| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Killing the treasonous clones |
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UV Master Programmer
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 5520
Service Group: PLC
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| JayHawk wrote: |
Dear Computer,
I'm a beginning GM and have a question.
Once it is established one of my players is a traitor and/or mutant and/or communist, what is there to stop my other players from killing all new clones of that player. Or does a new clone free of all guilt?
JH |
Treason must be entirely a result of the exercise of choice. The next clone wasn't involved in the choices that lead to the previous termination ~ therefore tabla rasa.
Mutations do not necessarily follow from clone to clone (well at least not necessarily the same one). ~ therefore tabla rasa.
Secret Society affiliation must be entirely a result of the exercise of choice. The next clone wasn't involved in the choices that lead to the previous situation ~ therefore tabla rasa.
More critically why are players asking these questions in the first place? Let them find out the hard way how AC works. Trigger happy troubleshooters should lead brief and expansive lives full of unknowns and confussion.
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I'm usually online Monday to Saturday and, sod it, most Sunday's too  |
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| Cam-R-ONN-1 |
| Posted: Sun May 22, 2011 5:38 am Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 16 May 2011
Posts: 85
Service Group: HPD&MC
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Treason must be entirely the result of choice?! That sounds like pansy GMing. I take it you've never had the following happen:
Vulture Squad: "You, you're under arrest!"
Player: "What did I do?"
Vulture Squad: "You're not cleared for that information, scum. How do you plead?"
Player: "Um, not guilty."
Vulture Squad: "What do you have to say in your defense?"
Player: "How am I supposed to defend myself when I don't even know what I'm accused of?"
Blah, blah, blah, smoking boots, next clone arrives momentarily.
There's bound to be laws that The Computer has made which only served to give some citizens (mostly Death Leopard) new and interesting ideas for ways to have trouble they'd never thought of before. If the law is causing increased incidences of the behavior you're trying to limit, the best method is to classify knowledge of the law. It's still illegal, but people aren't tempted to break it. |
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| Phial |
| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:06 am Post subject: |
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UV Master Programmer
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 5520
Service Group: PLC
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The clone in your account still chose to comit the treason they were ignorant of.
Your point?
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I'm usually online Monday to Saturday and, sod it, most Sunday's too |
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| Uccisore |
| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 39
Service Group: PLC
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So, how do you guys handle treason points when a clone dies for some other reason? I just had a player die to a giant cargo-loading arm that squeezed him a little too tight. So does he lose all treason points because his clone didn't do any of that stuff?
A related question- I just had a clone say "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." (his player was trying to be ironic), and so a surveillance turret immediately annihilated him. Should his next clone get any treason points for knowledge of Commie propaganda? |
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| Silent |
| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 2885
Service Group: HPD&MC
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Treason points carry over to the next clone. The next clone still has all the same treasonous beliefs and thought patterns that has not been "corrected" yet.
Second question: No, because he was already terminated for knowing commie propaganda. He has been appropriately "corrected" (termination and repatterning), so no new treason points.
_________________
| Phial, in ARC wrote: |
| I know I'm a dummy but, I realised as recently as yesterday why the IC game is in PLN sector. |
Silent-B-PLN-6
Chief of Security(pending)
Works in: HPD&MC, Internal Security
Wearing: BLUE Jumpsuit
Silent-V-PLN-10 (deceased) Runs XAI Subsector |
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| Uccisore |
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 39
Service Group: PLC
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| Anybody want to field an answer to this that feels right for a Straight game? None of the above is really blowing my dress up. It just seems hard to believe that if The Computer (or IntSec or whomever) discovers that you're a member of Secret Society, that they won't treat your next clone like he's also a member. I mean, your Secret Society presumably will. |
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| firedup13 |
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 2921
Service Group: CPU
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I've always disliked the notion that by "just" dying, you're free of guilt, as it could lead to the thinking that it's preferable to spend a clone rather than deal with the probation or other correction you must face for your crimes with your current clone. Kill yourself before debriefing, and you've got nothing to worry about?! That doesn't sound very interesting or in the spirit of PARANOIA, to me... Not at all.
The way I usually chose to address this quandry when I GM games is to have Treasons that were already revealed(/issued Correction) deemed wiped clean... but as-yet-UnCorrected Treasons still carry over, so your clone family remains at risk for Correction for any Crime at any time (and clone number) in the past.
---//----
To your specific example of SecSec membership, if it is discovered, in straight? TSK! If it's really Straight, that clone might be in for a world of hurt. Instead of Terminating the clone, and then he's magically Treason Free and his society just moves forward like nothing happens... Plenty of options, depending on your flavor.
Just a few alternate Ideas that pop to mind:
-Brainscrub him, so he doesn't remember how to contact them or the signals if they contact him. He has to be re-recruited, without the other PCs noticing(!).
-Twiddle him; as part of the termination, fiddle with his brain. He now disdains what he used to embrace. He no longer enjoys the benefits of the society. Possibly gets recruited by their opposition, if applicable. (Copore Metal / Frankenstien Destroyers, for example.)
-IntSec interrogates him until he names names. Maybe even turn him into a double agent, required to report on the society he once pledged allegence to, under penalty of Erasure if he doesn't give useful tips. Either way, all the while desperately hoping his bretherin don't find out he is the mole/leak.
- For something more lighthearted, something like put him on probation and make him say "Don't listen to me because I'm a member of (secsoc here), but..." before every statement... Less lighthearted, under penalty of termination every time he forgets until his six pack is exhausted. Maybe IntSec knows he's still with them, so they keep him under heavier surveillence... and he's just as likely to unwittingly lead his bretherin into a sting as to accomplish anything for them.
No shortage of possibilities...
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Hugh-B-DED-11, Coordinator - Evacuations & Order
Has two black eyes.
Wearing:
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[OOC: I'm usually online every day, though Mondays tend to be hectic.] |
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| Elle-R-KNO |
| Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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YELLOW
Joined: 05 Aug 2003
Posts: 682
Service Group: Technical Services
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The Computer's logic...well, doctrine...and the actual condition of reality don't exactly match up.
The Computer sincerely believes that each clone starts out perfect and free of the flaws that caused the last one to succumb to treason. The people know that unless brain scrubbing or re-patterning has been applied (and the actual success of that is a crapshoot, more of a hammer than a scalpel), this is BS. However, the law of the Computer prevents them from acting on the knowledge of a treason that has already been corrected, without evidence of new treason being brought forward. If they do so anyway, the avenging clone is now guilty of treason, even if its obvious to everyone that secret society affiliation doesn't simply go away when the clone number goes up.
Mutation is less obvious. The Computer insists that the clone system is perfect, unless evidence of commie sabotage can be shown, and therefore can not be the cause of mutations, therefore each new clone is a blank slate. However, exactly because the cloning system is not so perfect, there is no guarantee that each clone will come out with the same mutation, even though many do. So a wise player should not assume they will.
That help?
_________________
[quote="2DMan"]...you really don't want Elle hunting you. In my personal experience, girls are a hell of a lot more dangerous than guys, cause girls plan, and create cold revenge, which is a hell of a lot worse...[/quote]
IC Status
The return and revenge of Elle-Prime.
Pity the targets of her revenge aren't around. But you'll do! |
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| Uccisore |
| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 19 Sep 2011
Posts: 39
Service Group: PLC
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| Elle-R-KNO wrote: |
The Computer's logic...well, doctrine...and the actual condition of reality don't exactly match up.
The Computer sincerely believes that each clone starts out perfect and free of the flaws that caused the last one to succumb to treason. The people know that unless brain scrubbing or re-patterning has been applied (and the actual success of that is a crapshoot, more of a hammer than a scalpel), this is BS. However, the law of the Computer prevents them from acting on the knowledge of a treason that has already been corrected, without evidence of new treason being brought forward. If they do so anyway, the avenging clone is now guilty of treason, even if its obvious to everyone that secret society affiliation doesn't simply go away when the clone number goes up.
That help? |
That's basically how I run it, I'm just wondering if it jives well with Straight style. I'm torn between "yes, the Computer really is that inept, and that's what makes things so tense and twisted", and "That's just silly, the Computer should be more competent in a game that isn't Classic or Zap." |
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| Elle-R-KNO |
| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: |
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YELLOW
Joined: 05 Aug 2003
Posts: 682
Service Group: Technical Services
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Off the top of my head, the thing that comes to my mind is Asimov's I, Robot (not the movie! They have almost nothing in common). There's a book chock full of examples of computer brains getting into trouble by doing exactly what they're programed to do, when the situation they're faced with conflicts with what the programming can handle.
The Computer is, ultimately, a computer. Garbage In, Garbage Out. It has been written...and constantly rewritten...by people with conflicting agendas, loyalties and goals. It is a patchwork of patches. Susan Calvin, robopsychologist, would have a field day (and then several very hellish years) with The Computer. And yet hard coded into The Computer is the notion that it is perfect. Admitting to a contradiction would be admitting that it is not perfect. And so when it hits a conflict...it has to rationalize it somehow.
(Add on top of that hardware failures, hacks, viruses and the like, and you can't even guarantee that The Computer knows its left CompNode from its right.)
Oh you can still have The Computer be competent in given areas. It can see more than a human, think faster than a human, and it knows where the switches for those ceiling mounted lasers are. What you cannot have, and still have it be Paranoia, is a Computer that is sane.
And of course, there's the human factor...the High Programmers with the conflicting agendas. The worst The Computer can do is kill you for treason. The High Programers and their lackeys can make your life hell.
_________________
[quote="2DMan"]...you really don't want Elle hunting you. In my personal experience, girls are a hell of a lot more dangerous than guys, cause girls plan, and create cold revenge, which is a hell of a lot worse...[/quote]
IC Status
The return and revenge of Elle-Prime.
Pity the targets of her revenge aren't around. But you'll do! |
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