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| Phial |
 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:29 am Post subject: Remaking P-Live |
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UV Master Programmer
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 5525
Service Group: PLC
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I was going to post this today anyway but Weetu preempted that by replying to Jazzer's previous request for a programmer. This is what I wrote there.
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Well the simple answer is yes and no.
Jazzer may indeed have some php tasks that he would like performed on the site but only he has the ability to grant the root access necessary to make said changes. At that point the whole wish list of changes that I would like would get thrown onto the pile.
A more likely outcome is that we re-form P-Live on a site elsewhere and rebuild things from the ground up. I was about to make an effort post and call for expressions of interest in this new OTHER project. The existence of this topic does highlight the inherent disloyalty/traitorous nature/nonteamplayerness of my current proposal but recent SPAM attacks have somewhat hardened my attitude to the current state of affairs. |
Posting this on Jazzer's site, that he both created and made the amazing place that originally attracted us all, seems the height of disloyalty but the simple fact is trying to develop, promote or even properly administer the site without root access is not possible.
In a perfect complex Jazzer or one of the old UVs with root access would return and usher in a new era of complete happiness and prosperity. I know this is what I have been hoping for. As time goes by eventually one must acknowledge that what one would most like and reality aren't a good fit. If I am to administer a Paranoia fan site then I need to be able to pull the levers when needed. It isn't a matter of me expending the time to learn (although I would), it is about having the tools required to perform my role.
If you didn't know I fell into the job after being the last GM standing in the perpetual IC game. I would dearly love for someone else to lead the show and I regret that this 'Steward of Gondor' situation has also been running in conjunction with the slipping of the entire Paranoia-Live brand into disrepair and decay.
So here it is. To reboot a Paranoia fan site we need:
1/ A server to host on [$$$]
2/ A new site (software etc [$$$]).
3/ Either: Some sort of a deal with Jazzer to utilise art assets and previous content OR a complete reset of content including art assets.
4/ People to commit to doing this stuff.
If there isn't sufficient interest left then I will continue to ride the rocket all the way into the heart of the sun. o7
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I'm usually online Monday to Saturday and, sod it, most Sunday's too  |
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| Silent |
| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:55 am Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 2886
Service Group: HPD&MC
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Back when P-Live was down, somebody tracked down where Jazzer was, and got Jazzer to renew P-Live again.
Why not just track down Jazzer again in real life and ask him to give up the root access?
I don't like getting rid of a Paranoia fansite especially since there has been URLs in the official PARANOIA books linking here and we still need to recover all the files on the GMFTP. We should aim to gain root access, not waste time rebuilding the wheel.
I would even consider the idea of hacking into the P-live website and gaining root access that way, except doing so would just be mean (and illegal, but mostly mean). [The only reason I even have considered that was that I knew of a dying online board that suffered a "coup" when one of the players hacked into an admin's account and took over the board because they disagreed with what the admin has done.]
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| Phial, in ARC wrote: |
| I know I'm a dummy but, I realised as recently as yesterday why the IC game is in PLN sector. |
Silent-B-PLN-6
Chief of Security(pending)
Works in: HPD&MC, Internal Security
Wearing: BLUE Jumpsuit
Silent-V-PLN-10 (deceased) Runs XAI Subsector |
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| Allen Varney |
| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Gamma Very High Programmer
Joined: 22 Feb 2004
Posts: 1083
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I support Phial in whatever effort he deems best, either to maintain the current site or launch a new successor. I hope all loyal -- no, all surviving citizens, loyal or not, will join him and offer whatever help, whether coding or financial, they can.
(It should go without saying that I oppose hacking the existing site for root access.)
_________________
-- Allen Varney
PARANOIA (2004 edition) principal writer
Official PARANOIA novels: Ultraviolet Books
PARANOIA development blog |
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| Aratos |
| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:51 am Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 4640
Service Group: Power Services
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| Anything I can do to help, I'm more than happy to pitch in. With the obvious disclaimer that for at least the next year and a half my uni coursework takes priority over everything else. |
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| Phial |
| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:31 am Post subject: |
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UV Master Programmer
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 5525
Service Group: PLC
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The issue of root access has been raised and refused.
Main problems:
FTP access isn't coming back
Hacker damage still current and can not be fixed.
Can't do security patches on software.
Can't upgrade squat.
Last squeal for Jazzer has gone unanswered.
And for this ~new~ site to work (properly) we'd need the necessary redirects that the domain name owner would have to enable. This would pretty much need Jazzer's active participation. Worst case is we move to a very similar domain name or ask for space on another well known (Paranoia) domain.
And in fact doing this without Jazzer's complete agreement and support is probably a bridge too far for me anyway. I just hate being stuck.
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I'm usually online Monday to Saturday and, sod it, most Sunday's too |
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| firedup13 |
| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 2939
Service Group: CPU
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When P-Live went down for [DFSR] days, I had serious thoughts of attempting to spearhead a new PARANOIA fan site, even rationalizing that a fresh start might be exactly what is required in order to get things going again (those "last post in 2008" type forums are a detraction to possible new members who come poking around.) However, I knew that even though I was willing to dedicate a decent amount of time to the effort, the time I could dedicate would probably fall short of the amount required to make a new site truly successful, when faced with the daunting task of starting from scratch.
While the older forum dates are a detraction, I also recognized that tremendous existing assets would become unavailable to such an endeavour, most notably the published URL (as initially mentioned by Silent.) Even should the URL redirect be accomplished, other assets would be lost. I was loathe to consider loss of the archives of the prior forum play, from the first generation of Phase IV players. (I am perhaps foolishly optimistic that some day, looking back at those play archives may help to inspire a new generation of P-Live community members (draw by methods TBD) to be part of a reinvigorated perpetual IC Forum Game...)
So, more directly to the point... If the "last squeal for Jazzer" went unanswered, yet doing any move "without Jazzer's complete agreement and support is probably a bridge too far", it seems to follow that more "squealing" (and actual contact) is a prerequisite before anything happens. So, if actual contact is ultimately established...
How long ago was the root access issue raised/refused? Perhaps the "facts on the ground" (along with the passage of time) have created the possibility of this decision being revisited, and the option of trying to fix things here might become more viable?
_________________
Hugh-B-DED-11, Coordinator - Evacuations & Order
Has two black eyes.
Suffering from burns to his lower extremeties.
Rumors lack of oxygen caused severe brain damage are Treason.
Wearing:
A BLUE Jumpsuit with boots
Digital ID Tag(displays name, with a bright bar indicating Security Clearance of BLUE.)
[OOC: I'm usually online every day, though Mondays tend to be hectic.] |
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| Silent |
| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 2886
Service Group: HPD&MC
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While I doubt anybody (who wasn't already a player of Phase IV) is going to look back at Phase IV fondly (though I'm open to be proven wrong)...
I support recovering the "GMFTP" because of the mission logs. It is possible to reconstruct a PARANOIA mission from its logs (as what Scalane did, reconstructing my Zap! mission even though I never actually published my notes). The introduction of so many new (and free!) missions that a lazy GM can use is something that should be celebrated.
...The rest of the GMFTP is important as well (and I'd support recovering it too), but the mission logs are probably the ones that are necessary.
EDIT: How to recover that GMFTP is going to be a challenge though.
EDIT2: For the first time, I actually have begun reading DR's GRIM-style playtest (thanks to Wayback Machine). Let's see if this will be fun.
_________________
| Phial, in ARC wrote: |
| I know I'm a dummy but, I realised as recently as yesterday why the IC game is in PLN sector. |
Silent-B-PLN-6
Chief of Security(pending)
Works in: HPD&MC, Internal Security
Wearing: BLUE Jumpsuit
Silent-V-PLN-10 (deceased) Runs XAI Subsector |
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| Phial |
| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:04 am Post subject: |
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UV Master Programmer
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 5525
Service Group: PLC
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Due to me needing to raise the possibilty of moving the domain of the site perhaps we have focused less on what is my best solution which is to assemble a new team to run the broom through the existing site.
Just the act of using either a newer implementation of php or some other forum software would go a long way to revitalising things. Being able to choose the best way to present Paranoia using newer software/media solutions would be a breath of fresh air.
Please don't conclude that P-Live is beyond redemption. I just think it is time the people who are still here took control rather than continue the uncommented slide into oblivion.
_________________
I'm usually online Monday to Saturday and, sod it, most Sunday's too |
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| Trilirix |
| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:56 am Post subject: |
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ORANGE
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 221
Service Group: Power Services
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I'm starting to learn programming, but, don't know a lot as of yet. I'm learning python for now. Right now I know about enough to do fizzbuzz, but that's usually a test of minimal ability, whereas it is closer to my maximal ability.
When I'm actually somewhat knowledgeable I'll be willing to help.
_________________
Name: Rex-O-PLN-1/ Ep. 5: Rex-O-PLN-3
Wearing: A perfectly kept ORANGE jumpsuit with RED boots./Ep: 5: A RED jumpsuit with ORANGE boots.
Looks: 6 feet tall, lean but strong. Has brown eyebrow hair, blue eyes. |
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| Ragweed-PLN |
| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 70
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To address Phial's point #1, I have been extremely pleased with Linode. They offer virtual private servers at excellent prices, running your choice of Linux distribution. I would think a forum that averags a couple dozen simultaneous users could easily fit on a Linode 512, but if you need to expand, it is simple to upgrade to a larger plan. They offer servers in six locations, including London.
The main caveat is that you are entirely responsible for administering your own server; this includes installing software, developing the web site, and performing system updates. |
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| Phial |
| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:43 am Post subject: |
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UV Master Programmer
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 5525
Service Group: PLC
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NEWS!
Jazzer got back to me and has given me root access.
And now the learning curve starts.
I need a team and I need a plan.
I open the floor to discussion of the best way forward!
_________________
I'm usually online Monday to Saturday and, sod it, most Sunday's too |
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| Aratos |
| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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RED
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 4640
Service Group: Power Services
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| Well, first of all I think we need to look at the obvious: How compatible are the custom forum mods with phpbb3, or indeed more up-to-date versions of phpbb2? Before we make any updates to the forums we really want to be sure we have all the modifications working. |
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| firedup13 |
| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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BLUE
Joined: 08 Aug 2008
Posts: 2939
Service Group: CPU
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True to PARANOIA form, the grandest act of Treason leads to the biggest promotion - Hurray, root access for Phial! 
(Less than 1,000 INFRAREDs were harmed in the generation of a large enough squealing to attract Jazzer's attention, which falls well within acceptable parameters. Now please report to the nearest brainscrubbing facility. There never was any act of treason. Thank you for your cooperation.)
But seriously... as to the team, my programming skills are treasonously outdated. Not sure what help I could offer in that area, But I am currently in a position where I can offer a substantial time commitment to try to help if desired/able/needed.
As to the plan, or perhaps a tangent... here's my initial two credits:
short version:
-> While developing the plan to improve the site functionality, concurrently develop a plan to grow the member base.
-> Be sure that the rest of the team will be enabled to continue and succeed with the endevour, even if ANY one given person becomes difficult/impossible to reach.
____________________________________________________________
long version:
1. Marketing/Promotion:
To truely usher in the new era of complete happiness and prosperity, we're going to need to find success beyond corrected/improved technology. In addition to updating/debugging/changing the software that is the site, rebuilding an active and engaged community is equally important; we need to develop a thriving member base that can amplify, enjoy and benefit from the fruits of our labor, making the endevour to improve the site that much more worthwhile.
2. Redundancy/backup plan:
Highlighted by Phial's challenge of being (initially) unable to reach Jazzer, and much like any player participating in any one of the various IC Forum Game play opportunities... It clearly is extremely disheartening to become fully engaged trying to participate in an endevour, and then get stuck if/when key participant(s) go AWOL; it is important to keep in mind that even the most loyal and dedicated participant could become involuntarily unreachable. To the absurb extreme, if Phial got hit by a truck and couldn't login for an extended period of time... then what?
_________________
Hugh-B-DED-11, Coordinator - Evacuations & Order
Has two black eyes.
Suffering from burns to his lower extremeties.
Rumors lack of oxygen caused severe brain damage are Treason.
Wearing:
A BLUE Jumpsuit with boots
Digital ID Tag(displays name, with a bright bar indicating Security Clearance of BLUE.)
[OOC: I'm usually online every day, though Mondays tend to be hectic.] |
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| Adam-R-LON-1 |
| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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INDIGO
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 3853
Service Group: HPD&MC
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| Phial wrote: |
| Jazzer got back to me and has given me root access. |
Thank vat for that. Now all our problems are ostensibly over, right? Now we can all fix the site together, right?
As I have hardly any real programming knowledge, I'll just sit back and let you do that, then. Too many cooks spoil the Hot Fun and all that.
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For the Glory of Friend Computer! |
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| Phial |
| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:01 am Post subject: |
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UV Master Programmer
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 5525
Service Group: PLC
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This is a private correspondence to Jazzer in response to him querrying the move to a new php installation. I don't think he would mind me sharing it as it is all about where we are going.
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Jazzer,
Well to start with a new front page, then probably a new forum software set up. The existing P-Live assets would be retained as a sort of archive I suppose.
Also none of this is set in stone. Please feel free to add your input to the P-Live redevelopment thread.
I am aware that much of what made Phase IV work was an extensive modification to the Php 2.x interface. While it would be great to be able to port this into a new installation the problems that this immediately highlights (Including that it is actually broken [DFSR]) our lack of knowledge and experience of the current interface's workings. More importantly many of the unique features aren't probably really needed to continue in the spirit of the enterprise and cutting our requirements to meet our skill set would seem to be good management.
Personally I'm most motivated to develop a specification for how P-Live can best support the remaining Paranoia community while being innovative (etc) enough to attract participants. But on a purely personal note I'd love to be able to step back from all this and return to the more literary side of my interest in Paranoia as a medium. Speaking of which the Episode format has provided over a year's worth of reasonably well attended P-Live Paranoia forum role play so we aren't doing so badly.
Maybe the process can be staged as:
A recovery phase - Where the actual extent of the current issues are assessed and a careful revitalisation and repair program contemplated against our overall goals for the site. At the point where it becomes apparent that this isn't going to cut it we move to,
A redevelopment phase - Where the specification that guided the recovery phase is applied to how best to redevelop the site with no restraint of using any existing software (etc).
There certainly is alot of work ahead of me.
Hope this clears things up somewhat (despite the entire stream of consciousness aspects).
Phial |
So the "all our problems are over" would not actually well characterise our situation. For instance it would appear on a first glance that the GMFTP content has been deleted. Now before the howl goes up, it may just have been relocated to somewhere on the host that I haven't explored yet.
| Aratos wrote: |
| Well, first of all I think we need to look at the obvious: How compatible are the custom forum mods with phpbb3, or indeed more up-to-date versions of phpbb2? Before we make any updates to the forums we really want to be sure we have all the modifications working. |
Well phpbb2 is completely broken and has many very serious problems that even the latest version do not address. Whether the modifications that were applied to phpbb2 are required is probably a better first question. That is the question I'd rather ask because the work in fixing the existing setup may be much ado about nothing when the same effort could be applied to porting essential features to another kind of forum software. Personally the art assets are what are most important to me. Whether we need a compconomy, a dedicated inventory system, and a host of other 'behind the scenes' features is a question we need to consider. The Episode games have worked adequately well without any of this so to say they were essential is probably going too far. None the less having cool stuff that helps promote the Paranoia brand isn't a bad thing either.
I would also like to clarify that it was on my ~first~ attempt to contact Jazzer that I succeeded. I had assumed that other people who I contacted had tried to do so. Whether this is the case is now immaterial.
To comment on firedup13's post.
1/ While extremely important we need to focus on getting stuff working again before we consider the deeper implications. To this end if we are considering features maybe we should be considering what is an essential feature before moving to the peripheries. To use a car analogy: We should fix the motor before we worry about the electric cupholder.
2/ This needs to be a team effort. I am very strong on succession planning. At the very least there will be some documentation of what is being done and what is required to keep things running. Hopefully as a result of doing this exercise several candidates will become apparent.
SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Focus time.
What do you want from P-Live?
What are you willing to do to achieve this?
What relevant skills do you bring to the table?
_________________
I'm usually online Monday to Saturday and, sod it, most Sunday's too |
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